another thing we have in common...i love walmart! i was there last night actually. got some deoderant, filters for my fish tank (which i still have to get around to cleaning), and a box of rice krispies.

ps. i won't ask you how your studying is coming along because i don't want you to ask me how my marking is coming along :P

I have started to work finally! Been at it for an hour.

I did nothing yesterday. Towards studying.

GOOD LUCK ON MARKING. I always hated it. By this point in the semester I'd be giving out a suspicious number of perfect scores...

Walmart pays their employees higher than Target, who offer no benefits for their associates. Walmart employees make an average of $14 an hour -pretty damn nice. Walmart is also for raising the minimum wage, which most businesses are against and tell the government so; yet Walmart has hands in interest groups that try to raise the minimum wage.

They are the biggest employer in the country - and even perhaps the world.

And as for health care plans: with rising costs, Walmart decided to create their own and offer it to their employees - but the employee must pay for it. If the cost went to the company, the prices of my $3 shampoo and $15 DVD would go up. That's economics as far as I am concerned. But their top executives are on the exact same plan as the associates on the floor. They obviously see something in equality.

Sam Walton was a genius and a good man. He hated frivolity, he wanted everyone to be able to afford anything they needed, and he basically founded the discount store business. His company also employs millions of people, saves the average American thousands, and has basically forced suppliers to get their costs down. Efficiency is the name of the game, and Walmart has made it happen.

I have a professor that doesn't shop at Walmart. I don't know how to explain to her that it won't eat her alive. It's not going to take over the globe. Sure, it might kill off Toys-R-Us, which would make me very sad, but retail is a Darwinian business. There will always be a desire for branded clothing, branded underwear, branded electronics - all of which Walmart might acquire, but not to the extent to kill off Hollister, Victoria's Secret, or Best Buy.

Now I feel like working on my business paper. Thank you!

Brilliant points.

Yeah, note that raising the minimum wage will not affect walmart because they are paying around double that.

Delusional points.

1. Being the biggest does not mean it is the best.

2. Target is not anti-union, and it allows employees to make free choices with regards to unionizing.

3. That's great that top executives have the same health care plans that are available to the workers. Ever think of what the cost of paying for such insurance is? Ever think that most employees cannnot afford that cost when making $40 a day and it costs $500 a month for a health plan?

4. Your $14 an hour is just false. Flat-out false. That number is inclusive of more than the working-class (who is harmed by Walmart; there is no doubt execs do well per hour). Of course the higher ups are doing great! Otherwise, the company wouldn't continue to operate.

5. Efficiency is efficient--it isn't always good.

6. Your professor probably cares more about small-town shops, not retail stores. Is he/she an ignorant slut, too?

Actually, Target IS, anti-union, at least the one I worked at was.

First, I am very insulted you called me an ignorant slut. I guarantee I know more about and thought more about Walmart than 99.9% of people out there. I was calling the store evil, you just insulted my intelligence.

Walmart is the largest anti-union company in the United States. While it gives people jobs, it does not help them get out of poverty. It probably spends as much on its charitable activities as it does in lawyer fees fightings its own employees that want to organize and join a union. It also fires employees that try to organize.

People that work 40 hours at Walmart are still below the poverty line. The majority of Walmart workers qualify for state-supported Medicaid because they are so poor and are not provided affordable health care. You think it is so great? Try to raise a family on minimum wage, even when you can buy your diapers and milk at Walmart at its great prices. Not everyone is smart enough to get a skilled job, but that doesn't mean people don't work hard at the jobs they do have. Walmart workers go to work, every single day, 8 hours a day, and go home with about $40 after taking out taxes.

Walmart is NOT giving anyone a higher standard of living. And I am really not supportive of exploiting third world countries and outsourcing manufacturing jobs overseas so people in third world countries can also work at crappy jobs and not support their families on four cents an hour. Then, we here in the US can pay all of our unemployed manufacturers unemployment benefits and their health care costs, because they now have to live off our social welfare systems. You say they should just find another job? Good luck finding a job in the US.

Walmart is not a positive force in America, it is just an imposing force.

You are all for Walmart making the US happy? What about all the small shop owners in rural communities who have been put out of business because Walmart has come into town? They can't support their families anymore, and they are now forced to shop at the corporation that put them under (or drive to the next town...oh wait, Walmart took those places over too).

I am so irate at everything you said that this may not be articulate, and I apologize. Ignorant sluts probably should just keep their mouths shut and not challenge "economics," because economics trumps human dignity and a decent quality of life.

Before I go on and read your whole thing,

I did not call you an ignorant slut. I said that what YOU SAID would be the EQUIVALENT of that, I said that the statement would be FALSE, and that you are SMART AND COOL.

Look at the structure of your sentence:

People who say (SUBJECT) are (VERB) ignorant sluts (ADJECTIVE).

I believe you are looking at the structure of ONE CLAUSE of my sentence, which is the definition of taking things out of context.

The sentence was:

I'm sure they meant to say something more clever and well-reasoned, because I know they are smart, and cool, and that "Walmart is evil" is the intellectual equivalent of me saying "People who say Walmart is evil are ignorant sluts."

and I followed it DIRECTLY with:

Both statements are absolutely false.

My statement was not false!

That's your opinion.

It doesn't change the fact that I didn't call you an ignorant slut.

First, I am very insulted you called me an ignorant slut. I guarantee I know more about and thought more about Walmart than 99.9% of people out there. I was calling the store evil, you just insulted my intelligence.

Already addressed this, but just to be doubly clear. I didn't insult your intelligence. I insulted your statement that Walmart is evil. I have no doubt you know a lot about Walmart and your comment was based on something. I said that. That you likely meant something more well-reasoned.

Walmart is the largest anti-union company in the United States. While it gives people jobs, it does not help them get out of poverty. It probably spends as much on its charitable activities as it does in lawyer fees fightings its own employees that want to organize and join a union. It also fires employees that try to organize.

While I don't think this rises to 'evil' it's very likely unfortunate. If firing employees who try to organize is illegal, then I'm against it. If it's not, I'm not.

People that work 40 hours at Walmart are still below the poverty line. The majority of Walmart workers qualify for state-supported Medicaid because they are so poor and are not provided affordable health care.

No citation, as I had for my numbers. Even if they are below the poverty line, if their job at Walmart is the best they can get, it's not Walmart's responsibility to pay them more. Walmart could only pay them more by raising costs, and I'm not willing to pay more. I have a grocery budget that I have to keep under. If Walmart raises prices, I will just eat cheaper food.

You think it is so great? Try to raise a family on minimum wage, even when you can buy your diapers and milk at Walmart at its great prices. Not everyone is smart enough to get a skilled job, but that doesn't mean people don't work hard at the jobs they do have. Walmart workers go to work, every single day, 8 hours a day, and go home with about $40 after taking out taxes.

You're pointing to a problem without offering a solution. What is Walmart supposed to do to fix this? I can't predict a solution for you to suggest that I won't find problematic, but that doesn't mean there isn't one.

Walmart is NOT giving anyone a higher standard of living.

It is to me, and I'm really all I care about.

And I am really not supportive of exploiting third world countries and outsourcing manufacturing jobs overseas so people in third world countries can also work at crappy jobs and not support their families on four cents an hour.

I believe in the article I cited it states the Chinese workers are getting fifty cents an hour, over ten times this amount. If those workers can't find a better job, then they are probably grateful for that job. It's not so exploitative as you make out. What would China do if Walmart stopped importing?!

Then, we here in the US can pay all of our unemployed manufacturers unemployment benefits and their health care costs, because they now have to live off our social welfare systems. You say they should just find another job? Good luck finding a job in the US.

It the capitalist market, where you have chosen freely to live, efficiency is achieved by finding the least expensive way to do things. While it sucks for the individual manufacturing worker, it's great for me. And they will serve the economy better in some other capacity. How is it Walmart's fault that they can buy things cheaper from China? How is that evil? I don't think you can make a case for that.

cont'd below

Walmart is not a positive force in America, it is just an imposing force.

Agree to disagree.

You are all for Walmart making the US happy? What about all the small shop owners in rural communities who have been put out of business because Walmart has come into town? They can't support their families anymore, and they are now forced to shop at the corporation that put them under (or drive to the next town...oh wait, Walmart took those places over too).

As an American and fan of the fee market I don't see how Walmart owes a duty to small companies to be poor at business so the weak may survive alongside them. Who is really evil here? The person who for a few thousand dollars a year will go shop at Walmart instead of at small shops. I don't see what's so reprehensible about Walmart importing goods that consumers want, offering jobs that workers want, providing a service that millions of people obviously appreciate. Walmart doesn't owe it's less savy competition anything.

I am so irate at everything you said that this may not be articulate, and I apologize. Ignorant sluts probably should just keep their mouths shut and not challenge "economics," because economics trumps human dignity and a decent quality of life.


You're very articulate. The issue is that we apparently have a different view of corporate morality, and I don't think that's necessarily a problem. I never said you should keep your mouth shut or inhibit yourself from criticizing economics. I just think that "Walmart is evil" is far to simple and easy to say to someone, when all I did was buy my groceries there.

At least I didn't call you evil.

Another thought for you to ponder: the goods Walmart imports do not have the same standards as those goods would have had if they had been made in the US. Child toy recalls is one of the most recent issues that comes to mind.

Now I am really done. Time for football!

You did call me evil by implication with your 'pay more to support the little guy' comment.

The thing is: my statement about Walmart being evil is true, so you saying both are false is false. :-)

I am glad Walmart benefits you as an individual. I just hope when you do have the finances to pay $20 cents more for a loaf of bread, you choose that option and help support the little people.

Not all products at Walmart are from China. Have you read the recent articles that China's economy is failing because corporations are moving to cheaper markets to produce goods?

I could give you citations, but it isn't worth my time. I have fought my battle, know my facts are true, and don't need to justify the validity of my statements by providing a link in LJ.

It is illegal to fire people that attempt to organize.

I can make a case that Walmart is evil, because I don't think about consumers only--I think about the workers.

Laid-off manufacturing workers cannot serve the economy better elsewhere, because there are no jobs elsewhere.

I am done with this debate. I probably will stop reading most of your responses, so you can stop typing.

I just hope when you do have the finances to pay $20 cents more for a loaf of bread, you choose that option and help support the little people.

I certainly NEVER shall. The idea is morally repugnant to me, that I would pay more than the value of something just because why? There is no reason. If I want to make a charitable donation I will, and do. But not to Walmart employees. They're doing fine.

I have family members that work and shop at Walmart. I don't blame them for doing it, and I don't think they are evil. They do it because they need to.

I am glad you take your savings and donate to charitable causes. You have a strong belief that that is the way to help those in need. I have my own way, and that is not patronizing a company I think puts people in a position to need charity. May I recommend a democratic candidate that will support the unionization of Walmart for your donations this year?

Now I am back to being playful. I hope you have seen this as a friendly debate amongst intellectuals. I will stop arguing that you called me an ignorant slut, because I know it wasn't intentional, and that you didn't mean for it to be interpreted that way, and I know I am not. I am probably even wrong in the way I read it, but I will never admit defeat!

On a completely different matter--go study so you DON'T end up working at Walmart.

agreed. enjoy football.

hell yeah. nicely put. :-)

I'm sorry for all the wank. I believed Walmart was bad until I opened my brain and decided to stop listening to propaganda that Walmart haters spew out faster than cars taking off at Nascar.

Did you know: there were a group of protesters in a small town in California picketing a Walmart coming in. One of Walmart's executives was driving by and called headquarters, not remembering anything about a store going in there. Turns out he was right. He asked the protesters what the hell they were doing, and they said that it was really a Target going in, but no one hates Target (which is strange because they don't pay their employees much and they charge more on an equivalent item, but they do have better image because of their higher prices. Neat!).

As much as I love you, I'm not going to read more of this page. I have work to complete and costume renderings to paint.

Do you know why they were picketing?

I can't remember if wrote wal-mart is evil or not..but I go there all the time. The prices are unbelievable. The only issues with Wal-mart is, ironicall, racial profiling. It happened to my friend, who is Mexican. He left the one Wal-mart and went to another where they did it again. That wasn't cool. He's one of the sweetest, nicest people I've met, and no he does not look like he is a shoplifter, he was with his family which I found really disturbing. What kind of message are they showing his son?

Anyway, I'm so devout in my outrage that I bought a grip of X-Mas presents there.

Racial profiling is disgusting. I hope that wasn't really what was going on. I used to work in retail, and at my store that just didn't happen. At my store though it COULD have happened that he looked vauguely like a chronic shoplifter that they had dealt with personally. *shrugs* Racial profiling is universally disturbing, but I personally promise you that IF walmart has a corporation-wide policy on racial profiling, they are AGAINST IT. As they must be, by law. That doesn't stop some ignorant workers of doing some shitty stuff, obviously.

I love Christmas shopping, lol.

Well, I can't dis/agree with you. I don't even recall clearly what the name of the store my bro took me to where he bought us a digicam. :) My mom didn't like the clothes that were sold in that store, but then it's really hard to please someone with such exacting standards. :)

I think Wal-Mart is a really complicated issue.

From reading books like "Nickel and Dimed" it seems clear that working at Wal-Mart is - at best - unpleasant, and that a great proportion of that unpleasantness is brought about by company policy. Not that Wal-Mart is necessarily the worst company to its low-level employees, but because it is the (I think) largest private employer in the country, the fact that so many of its workers continue to struggle is notable ... particularly compared to the relative comforts of union workers a generation or two ago.

On the other hand, Wal-Mart's size and economies of scale have made it a powerful force for lowering prices on groceries and other household items. Its amazing advances in logistics also allowed it to be (if I recall) the first on the scene with truckloads of ice after Hurricane Katrina.

It's a few years old now, but I think the book "The Wal-Mart Effect" notes all these paradoxes quite nicely. (Though the above examples are from a variety of sources, which I can find if anyone actually cares). That book posits that *all* shoppers and the entire US (and, to some degree, global) economy are impacted both positively and negatively by Wal-Mart's continued existence, and that the evil-killer-of-wages-and-independent-business versus messianic-vision-of-capitalist-and-populist-success debate misses a larger point: that something of this complexity hasn't really happened before, and probably deserves to be watched and judged on its own terms.

I should read those. I wish I had more time!

Definitely read Nickle and Dimed. It is a good book, and a quick read (perhaps you can find it on CD for a long car ride). It is about a journalist that goes undercover for six working class jobs. Quite an eye-opener.

There is also the movie Walmart: High Price for Low Cost that is also good (you have probably already seen/heard of that).

I loved Nickled and Dimed!! That was a great book -- but I felt worse for the Merry Maid employees.

From what I know about Walmart, (which isn't a hell of a lot, except one or two visits) I believe we have a similar chain store in New Zealand, called The Warehouse.
*shrugs* I have nothing against it. It provides usually cheap - but not always bad - products. You get things that are basically the same, for like 1/4 the price.
It provides jobs for people that often (not always) but often, wouldn't have many other choices. As far as I know, the pay rate isn't high. But let's face it, a majority of the people who are working there are not highly educated. And while I'm sure that the majority of those people work hard - and the harder they work, the more they get for it - they haven't put the years or money into a higher education - through choice, intelligence or circumstances. I strongly believe that you get what you work for. If you struggle through years at University, and work hard, you get the money for it. If you finish school at 15, without a high school diploma, then you won't get the same amount of money.
However, Walmart, and The Warehouse provide jobs for people who often, wouldn't get other jobs. As far as I'm aware, both these chains of stores have a variety of jobs available, including non-contanct,a nd contact with customers - which works well for people who may not be 'people' people.
I'm sure that a lot of the goods made for these stores are made overseas. So what? There will also be stuff in thsoe stores made within the country, and I'm sure that a large number of other stores also stock things made within in the country. It all works out.

And btw, you sentence structure about "and that "Walmart is evil" is the intellectual equivalent of me saying "People who say Walmart is evil are ignorant sluts." Both statements are absolutely false."
totally made sense. You weren't calling anyone an ignorant slut, you were merely stating that both statements were false, and that to say somethign as outrageous, and blind as 'Walmart is evil', is like you saying that people who say that are ignorant sluts.

I agree with you. Walmart isn't evil. It's just a shop, that provides jobs for people who without Walmart wouldn't have a job. (And gives us cheap stuff.)

cool. I want to read that- will later.

I don't think the corporation is evil, but I hate the one closest to my house cos it replaced a dollar store, a really good Chinese takeout, and took over a vacant lot that used to be by the transit system so now we have to pay :(

You're awesome. I love you say what you believe in, no apologies, and open to discussion.

xox

now i want chinese food. BLAST.

ok. I stand by my comment that walmart is evil. because they are. I'm going to jump in here. I also don't appreciate you insinuating that it was an accident and stupid that I said they were evil. It wasn't a mistake, and yes I realize you weren't necessarily calling me stupid. but by the end of entry I got the impression that you did think I was stupid (at least about this) AND THAT PISSED ME OFF. which doesn't happen easily.

fact: they locked illegal immigrants in their stores overnight.
fact: they cost US taxpayers at least tens of thousands of dollars in subsidies.
fact: everyone I know that has worked at walmart hated it and said they treated their employees like garbage.
fact: they do run small mom and pop stores out of business. and usually with government help of free land, etc. free market is great, but this isn't the case of a free market. This is a company that is using it's political ties for market share and domain. how is that free market?
fact: they provide information to their employees about medicaid coverage and how to manipulate the system so THEY don't have to pay.

they are definitely not helping the economy of this country by importing 95-99% of their inventory. they are hurting this country, and perpetuating an already existing problem of manufacturing in this country. and why are you worrying about foreign jobs? we have to worry about people in THIS country first.

they can't get a better job because they've either destroyed the better paying competition, or there are no manufacturing jobs because everything is being outsourced. I know they weren't the cause of that, but they certainly aren't helping.

I know plenty of people that shop at walmart, and yes their stuff is cheap. but it's cheap for a reason. I didn't make much money last year, and I rarely shop at walmart. I work retail, so I know about how walmart operates. they aren't helping america with their cheap goods, and they are part of the problem. I would like to think you would change your position about shopping there when you have money after you become a lawyer.

I also don't appreciate you insinuating that it was an accident and stupid that I said they were evil. It wasn't a mistake, and yes I realize you weren't necessarily calling me stupid. but by the end of entry I got the impression that you did think I was stupid (at least about this) AND THAT PISSED ME OFF. which doesn't happen easily.

Lex, I'm sorry I upset you and I'm sorry you got the impression I was calling you stupid.

If you think Walmart is evil, that's what you think.

Bygones?

Oops that was badly phrased. I'm sorry for making you feel I thought you were stupid with my bad behavior.

I know you don't think I'm stupid...but yeah.

just agree to disagree.

agree to bygones, chica. go study.

-lex